And since they realize that their belief is based on purely subjective interpretations of scripture that require severe qualificationwell, much easier to get you to just concede their premises by couching them in theologically nebulous, but emotionally attractive (and manipulative), platitudes. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. This is very important to get a true and not twisted idea of what Calvinism, in its purest form, is. Bummer. I was a Jesus Movement convert, too in 1972. We can learn to receive it all. John Calvin (1509-1564) Michael Servetus (1511-1553) John Knox (c. 1513-1572) Teresa of Avila (1515-1582) Theodore Beza (1519-1605) Peter Baro (1534-1599) Caspar Coolhaes (1536-1615) Herman Witsius (1636-1708) Charles Borromeo (1538-1584) John of the Cross (1542-1591) Johannes Piscator (1546-1625) Richard Hooker (1554-1600) I follow Christ. However, because of this experience, I was soon led to Christ by a mainstream believer. I would be happy, however, to never use the label Calvinist again, out of respect for Jeff and Jeff. Many of their sayings and actions cannot stand the test of time, the test of logic, and most important the test of loving your neighbour. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. whats wrong with mess anyway? This would definitely color their opinion. But are *we* the measure of truth? Im sure there are believers in every venue. I dont think so, but Im pretty sure Spock was a Calvinist. 1911. People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. about how wrong they are about what they have been taught (and therefore believe) about Calvinism/Reform/Tulip. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. And thus, we are left with the only real proof that anyone has been given the truth: by agreeing with THEM. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. He shouldnt be let out of his cage yet. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. Groovy, man. Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. Aslan completely domesticated and caged within those 2400 pages of Perfect Doctrine and Parsed Theology? I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. Calvins instituted Christian Religion is very much a place for the wise and learned, and hidden from little children. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. My humble opinionyet supported by scripture, is that the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement, and meticulous sovereignity (the last is not a pillar) villify and slander the name and character of Christ. This is why I dont like to appeal to the belief systems of RCC, reformers, or Charlemagne. Might we call what youre describing love? Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? No, not a few verses, and not Calvin, but what Scripture says consistently about election, predestination, Gods omniscience and omnipotence, Gods love, etc.? CALVIN! Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. Even though I rejected Calvinism, I was not (nor have I ever been) a universalist, I still believed in Gods sovereignty, etc. Im not sure if Im doing justice to the guys views in how Im explaining it, so watching his video may be better. Thats misrepresenting my heart, Argo! I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. If I had to pick one thing about them that signals danger to me, though, it would be what they dont act on, which is all those chickified wishy-washy decaffy gay things Jesus (and subsequently the apostles) said about love being The Main Thing. Somehow He organizes His Will and human free will in accomplishing His ends. It needs to be dealt with directly and honestly, a complicated complex mature topic. 3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists - Redeeming God If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! Quote - "A pure heart won't get us out of conflict and controversy. The theology is weak. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. But its brought up a lot, so what am I supposed to do? I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. Ann. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Groovy, man. All we ask is that you pray for us when you get mad at us. Resistance is futile.. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. Thank you, Deb. But are *we* the measure of truth? At any rate, the point is that I agree with you (even though I disagree that TULIP is slanderous) that when we start elevating these doctrines to first tier issues, we are causing division within the body. This is not the Calvinist thought process. I am loving this discussion!!!!!! Prayers are sustaining me right now. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. But something has changed in the last number of years. @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. William Hendriksen (18 November 1900 - 12 January 1982) was a New Testament scholar and . I had found the light. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. (Well, maybe those who are committed to doing evil to others arent asking those questions, but). That was pretty much the last straw for me. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. But there are reasons not to make it an issue. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. Of course, this is an attempt of a finite mind to describe the infinite, so it cant be perfectly accurate. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. And those of us who see the logical cause and effect of Calvinism-to-abuse are against Calvinism because we dont WANT the powers that be to be the power any more. (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. Witherington doesn't like to be put in either camp, and Lenski is Lutheran. If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. That Cals portray Cal in so many ways, even on the same points, adds another layer of confusion to the conversation for me. I let the philosophers consider those questions. Horton made it clear that he did not agree with all of Olson's assertions. I dont think that is what TWW is for, and if it were then I wouldnt be here. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. I know you know how to do that because Ive seen you do it at ACFJ. Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. Thank you for helping me out. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Membership Covenants Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it. I know the WCF does not say it. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. Almost every theological viewpoint, and every Christian denomination, has a corresponding Systematic Theology book that reflects their positions on different topics of Scripture. If youll forgive my expressing it so poorly meaning no disrespect to either of the TWW Jeffs nor to any other person who considers that Calvins conclusions were much the same as theirs would be its extraordinary how quickly the worldly order re-asserted itself. I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. The promises are over the top. Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. I may post a little bit of my testimony and how I came to by position of being a non calvinist but for now just wanted to say thanks for this post and for all that you 2 do and for Wade as well and e-church! I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. 2. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. There are lot of things that I dont see how it fits. Paul teaches that it is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), Page 80: Systematic Theology Comparison Chart - Best Bible Commentaries When theology is inaccessible, it is not because God himself is inaccessible, but because it is expressed using made-up words whose meaning is known only to the in-crowd. Infused? Theology needs to take the back seat when it comes to comforting the abused. I do think though, there is a difference between a Calvinist and a Calvinista. B. Warfield said, "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. Pray for him. This is why I tend to fall back to the WCF. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. When a baby is born, mamas milk comes out as colostrum a very thick yellow substance perfectly designed to meet babies need exactly at the newborn stage of life. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! He "knew" that only the infants of covenantal believers go to heaven. I think it means that God is aware of every molecule (which He created, of course), and that none of them escapes His will. * Okay, end of sermon. Learn as I go, mistakes & big mess. They will tend to use hyperbole to make their point. I notedthat this man often appeared angry to me and blew him off, deciding he was dealing with something in his life. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Jeff B. This is as it should be, imo. If this is so, its really astounding. Calvinism , the theology advanced by John Calvin, a Protestant reformer in the 16th century, and its development by his followers.The term also refers to doctrines and practices derived from the works of Calvin and his followers that are characteristic of the Reformed churches.The Calvinist form of Protestantism is widely thought to have had a But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. But that isnt enough. No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. Demand they defend their ideas. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. Philosophers (not necessarily Christian ones) have wrestled with these questions for thousands of years without any real answers. However, they are limited, just as we are. Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. We have to balance very carefully allowing some women to blow off steam vs being vitriolic in their hatred of all things male. It might not make people any more interested in Calvinism, but it just bothers me to see a doctrine rejected for the wrong reasons. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. Youd be welcome at the table in my wigwam too Jeff. Anyway, I am not talking doctrine here. )<br><br>A few lists you will want to check out. Bring them to heaven? Are they involved in a joint venture? There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). I think Christendom could profit greatly from more women in the pulpit. "A missionary is a qualified Christian sent out under the authority of a local church to an area of recognized need in order to pursue the work of the Great Commission." Even if they are wrong, there are probably some good issues that are worth being explored. So when people try to argue logical conclusions of my beliefs, I tend to get upset if they arent conclusions that I arrive at. That is the only argument they have. who needs systems & neat little boxes? On the other thread, I commented about the issue of sovereignty and the misunderstanding a lot of people have about the concept of sovereignty. They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. What makes anyone think that we are going to solve it in a Bible verse war? Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other The word "Gospel" which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. What I am saying is that there is such a thing as finding joy in salvation, thanking God for His grace, but accepting that there is peace to be found in paradoxes. This short paper contains a list of common-sense and biblical arguments and counter-arguments against Calvinism and predestination. If you mean that those that God does not elect to save will definitely be condemned yes, since there is no other way they can be saved, they, in a sense, are elected to be condemned for their sins. CALVIN! That said, I am in the Non-Calvinist-non-Arminian camp (currently in a Mennonite church, but not an ethnic Mennonite), so I label myself Anabaptist to describe my neither-or in terms of Arminian/Calvinist. So very reasonable. Nicholas what a great link. *Thank you* for this post, as well as for your use of the term non-Calvinist. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. list of non calvinist theologians. Plus I had never heard of tongues). Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. But the rest of the bad stuff? How do you know that this, in fact, is what the Bible did and is not what God IS like? But I know the principles are the same. Mohler is either clueless or his inflated view of self distorts what he has done to the Southern Baptist Convention. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. I DO think that Calvinism is misconstrued a lot by people in this position, but either way its not a good time or place to try and correct them. CALVIN!, The Bible? list of non calvinist theologians - cleanworld.com